For Most People, College is a Waste of Time

[Laura Gibbs]

From the Wall Street Journal's opinion page, an article by Charles Murray (YES, that Charles Murray):

Imagine that America had no system of post-secondary education, and you were a member of a task force assigned to create one from scratch. One of your colleagues submits this proposal:
First, we will set up a single goal to represent educational success, which will take four years to achieve no matter what is being taught. We will attach an economic reward to it that seldom has anything to do with what has been learned. We will urge large numbers of people who do not possess adequate ability to try to achieve the goal, wait until they have spent a lot of time and money, and then deny it to them. We will stigmatize everyone who doesn't meet the goal. We will call the goal a "BA."
You would conclude that your colleague was cruel, not to say insane. But that's the system we have in place.

Speaking for myself, I don't agree with the author's contention that certification tests are the answer (for the certification exam solution, see Murray's article)... but I do agree with the premise that college education, as it currently exists, is more or less farcical - the farcicality of it depending on what day of the week you happen to ask me.

SO: Here are my questions:

Do you agree that the college degree system we have in place is insane?

How would you fix it?

Shamelessly anecdotal ssessments of what your college education did for you, or what it did not do for you, would be welcome, too! :-)

[Ellen Pham]

Dear Laura, thank you for your sweet and genuine empathy with Chucky- I will tell him about it and it will make him smile. I'm not sure if I have seen the movie or not (aging brain) but I did see a program on PBS about Vivien Thomas, very moving! I will stick that suggestion in my back pocket in case it is needed : ).

About calculus- it has struck me so many times through the years that calculus is one of those courses used to determine who might go into science, and who will not be going into science as a career. I think organic chemistry is another. And a student doesn't even have to try the courses for the shaking out to occur- many, like me, down deep inside doubt they will be able to do it, without even trying. (As an adult, I would not be so quick to reach this conclusion, but at 18, these things are easier to believe!) Looking back with slight regret : )

[Laura Gibbs]

Very true about calculus - I had what claimed to be a calculus course in high school, but it was so palpably a terrible course that I did not take the AP test, and then to my delight I absolutely LOVED the calculus teacher I had in college - I had a crush on him in fact (now THAT'S how you can be sure to learn calculus!) - but what was interesting is that a lot of the people in the class did not like him, because he did not teach them how to ace the tests, but instead went off on all these profound tangents about mathematical philosophy and his own specialty which was topography, if I am remembering correctly (this is over 25 years ago!).
Anyway, there are so many different ways to experience calculus. I feel lucky that mine was, quite accidentally, mind-boggling in the GOOD way. :-)

[Jess]

I thought you would all be happy to know (as it pertains to my rant about the requirement of college spanish earlier) that I have picked up at least enough spanish from my college courses to be of use: I am a reading tutor right now, and last week I had a little boy who was very quiet and shy. He wasn't terrible at reading, but he did have difficulty. After talking with him for a few minutes I noticed he had an accent and I asked him "do you speak Spanish?" To which he nodded, and seemed a little embarassed. I then began to ask him questions in spanish and he opened right up! We went back to reading in English, but when he had difficulty, I'd give him hints in Spanish so he could work it out. It was absolutely amazing to see his little face light up, and not become so shy anymore. We got so into it, the teacher had to come retrieve him for lunch because we lost track of the time. He thanked me as he ran off, telling his teacher that "Ms. Jessica can speak Spanish!" as he went. He was so happy, as was I that he was abe to protray just how much he knew simply because I gave him hints and tips he could understand. All that toil and money paid off in the huge grin on that student's face. Teacher moment in all it's splendor. = )

[Ellen Pham]

This is a wonderful story, Jess... but what I'm really astounded by is how much Spanish you learned! I took one year and I couldn't say anything :)

[Jess]

I am by no means fluent! But I am in my third, and last, year.

[Angela Lang]

I do not believe that it is insane; however a lot of the curriculum that is covered is a waste of time. For instance I am a Language Arts major with elementary emphasis and I think it is ridiculous that I need to take English classes such as British Literature and Literature classes that deal with America before the 1900’s. I do think these courses are important if literature history is the focus. I am going to be an elementary school teacher and none of the materials learned in those classes are going to make me a better teacher, because that information is obsolete to children. As a future teacher colleges need to focus more on educating teachers to deal with diverse classroom and how to get and influence the interest of students with different learning abilities.

[Laura Gibbs]

Hi Angela, I hear you! When I was going my teaching certificate to be a high school English teacher, I had to do a full year of traditional 18th & 19th-century American literature, even though I never intended to teach that at all (my interests are in folklore, mythology and world literature - the courses I do teach right now).

In my classes, I try very hard to make sure that students concentrate their biggest efforts on a project where they choose the topic themselves, hopefully because it is of real importance to them, and that it will continue to be of real value to them in the future. With literature, the sheer quantity of genius wonderful writing in the world is, for all practical purposes, INFINITE, and trying to define some kind of core curriculum and make everyone adhere to that is doomed to fail. If anything, it is better that everybody read as much different stuff as possible so that our COLLECTIVE wisdom will grow - if everybody reads the Scarlet Letter over and over and over again, we lose the breadth of knowledge we could have attained if people were instead following their own impulses and choosing for themselves what to read. :-)

[Ian Carmichael]

I'm currently enjoying David Pennac's The Rights of the Reader. It's a delightful book, translated from the French, really nailing the problems we create in reading, and recalling the wonder of autonomous, voracious literacy.
Very inspiring, simple and amusing.
Why am I reading it? - I came across it through the lists on books4teachers that David Deubel is working up for us - and anyone chasing good books.

[Janet K "Jan" Messman]

I disagree that the college degree system we have in place is insane. There are probably some institutions, however, that do not hold to the high standards of most colleges and universities. For some students, college is a total waste of their time, efforts, & MONEY. But that is their choice. What I do think is a waste of Money is the tuition and fees charged by small private colleges. Graduates exit college with student loans that will take them years to repay when they could have received the same education in traditional state colleges and universities. I think that the 4 years spent in college, in addition to the traditional education you receive, you also are enriched by all of the other facets of college life. You meet new people from different cultures and backgrounds, you are exposed to other activities that prepare you for the workplace.

[Dawn Rogers]

I agree that college is very expensive and takes years to repay. I really liked how you talked about the diversity and other benefits that students get from college. I do not think that college should be all about book knowledge. The experiences that students get out of classes is just as important as the ones that students receive in classes, if not more.

[Ellen Pham]

Janet, I have to disagree with you there... the quality of education in private colleges is much different than in the state university system, especially for undergraduate work, where the difference in class size and individual attention is astounding. I went to a state school, which I enjoyed (and I was older, I did not need the same kind of attention and encouragement from my professors as an 18 year old, though of course I did get some), and I have been willing to mortgage my house and my future security so my children can attend private colleges. There are different challenges in the private system, the most harrowing for my own children has been the lack of true diversity and the self-entitled attitudes from fellow students, but none of my children would trade it for a state education.

[Sue Palmer]

Interesting discussion. Here's my shameless recount.

I went to college a long time ago, so I am not sure if this is still holding true, but..

For me, college , both undergrad, and grad (law school), provided a "grading system" for the world as to my work ethic and ranking among others in my class. Law school in particular was very helpful in preparing me for the workload in the profession, as well as the competition. If you recall the "paper chase" picture of this program, it did in my experience really separate those who were motivated from others. My "summa cum laude" label from undergrad also helped me throughout my career.

I do believe that post sec ed has a meaningful role in this way. As one who has hired many over the years, I look to see the grades and ranking as a measure of the character, work ethic, and motivation of a candidate. It allows me to compare the candidate with the rest of the group.

In terms of what I learned? Again, law school taught me not so much the law but how to research it which is a criticle skill in any profession. My undergrad....? I guess I learned how to play the game, which may be of importance down the road as well....

Sue