Curiosity is the key. Isn't it?

[Or-Tal Kiriati]

Addressing younger Israeli scientists, Ada Yonath, winner of the 2009 Nobel Prize for Chemistry said - curiosity was the key to scientific progress. "If one has curiosity, then one stands the chance of attaining a high level of scientific inquiry."
Read more here: http://is.gd/4deEp.
What room does the education system - with its busy curriculum - leaves for curiosity today?
Where can curiosity be encouraged and developed in your view?

[Ian Carmichael]

Hi Or-Tal,
Fascinating subject - I have only a few superficial scratches to add. (I was adding them last night, when there was a power blackout! Now THAT leads to major disconnection.) My thoughts are like this:
I've been listening - to the Radio Free Philosophy podcasts, and the presenters were making the comment that real philosophy starts from wonder. From there it's a small step to framing fruitful questions - and curiosity is then engaged. (If I'm not curious, my questions won't be fruitful - I'll be asking "What year did Einstein publish the theory of general relativity" instead of "How is a mass able to distort space?" or "How is a field (electric/magnetic/gravitational) established?)
So, in classrooms there needs to be space - and a record - for fruitful questions (and that means space for unprogrammed questions.) There also needs to be space for the pursuit of those unanswered questions - I'm thinking programmatically of negotiated studies,but even a small space for free investigation would be profitable. And in the course of conversation in class, the freedom to engage the teacher - and student - in topic parallel discussions.
I'd want to put some boundaries on, related to the discipline in which the class is notionally engaged - so, in my science class, I have no space to consider the arrogance of Romeo, or the grandeur of Sibelius' Finlandia...
And if there's no space for curiosity, fruitful questions and their pursuit, then my classrooms will contribute nothing to creativity, invention or understanding. I may have a future Nobel prizewinner pass through - but my classes will have added nothing to them.

Any other thoughts? (or corrections, or clarifications...)

[Or-Tal Kiriati]

Well, it was after I posted this discussion that I have entered yet another discussion with my 15 year old daughter. She got really depressed by her homework in history. Complained that the list of questions means read your text book, chew and spit. She said "I used to love history, now I hate it and moreover, I hate studying".

There's an achievement for you.

Then we started to talk about high-school. She said "I was tempted to come to this particular high school because they promised best teachers, research and special projects, but in the end - we've got nothing and I feel I am only wasting my time and learning how to hate studying." Now, we are talking about a 15 year old girl who, for the past 7 years, have been planning an academic career in Physics "Research and Teach" - last night she admitted that if this is what it is about and if university has anything in common with high school she doubts that she wants to take part in it.

And the reason I am bringing this story up in this discussion is going back to curiosity. That's her main complaint. None of the items that make her wonder, those fruitful questions, be curious and yes, unprogrammed is answered at school. There is zero space for her mind to grow. The kids are being methodically prepared for the final exams - our own "baccalaureate", called "bagrut" here - that's a very long list of exams - but other then prepare for exams - there is no real learning going on.

Since the days are so long and there is so much homework, no time left to pursuit her dreams in the after school time too.

Curiosity is dying here and I feel powerless to stop the process.

[Ian Carmichael]

That is so sad, Or-Tal. It illustrates the bleak side of the picture I sketched. But it also fires up the next question - how can a teacher become such an organisation tool that they fail to flame the fire of an enthusiastic student, or to recognise the perils of drill-centred conformity?
And how strange (in my view) that a culture so devoted to creativity, learning, and debate can become so complicit in assembly-line achievement. [Perhaps I misunderstand my religious history, but I was under the impression that the rabbinic traditions were far from derivative conformity, but were instead concerned with personal understanding - and defence of those understandings - leaving aside the ultra-orthodox.]

And, ultimately, how can such conformism succeed? If we broadcast and train for conformity, who will answer a call then to creativity?

[Or-Tal Kiriati]

That the industrialism of the education for you.
True, Judaism evokes questions and discussions, but when we are a part of a global community and there is a fierce competition - on achievements. And as Mike so wisely wrote on my blog post here :
This is adults who have confused-

“harder” with “better”—-
“longer”— with “deeper”–
“school” with “work”—-
“memorization” with “understanding”
“rigor” with “more”

So except for unique teachers, most find themselves as little screws in an education machine, having to deal with 30-40 kids in a classroom and yes - they assemble - the final exams.

There is very little room for the individual (student).
Which makes me wonder:
So many systems in our advancing western society have discovered the individual and gained from relating to the individual needs. Take insurance for example: what used to be one type of car insurance is very much differentiated and adjusted to the driver, the use of the car, the area the family live in and where the car is parked...

Yet, when it comes to students - how many of the teachers really bother to know how many kids there are in the family, is the family healthy? Does the kids have his own room and desk or does he share? What languages are spoken at home? And so many questions that would affect both what the kids gets in the classroom and what he can give in the classroom.

Is this a curious kid we can work with and leverage this curiosity? Or is this a kid that needs to discover curiosity?
Totally different approaches, no?

[Ian Carmichael]

And I share some of that pressure - in high school, I'm dealing with about 140 students, (for some staff they are assigned to about 230!) and I struggle to get to know them in depth as individuals over a year, let alone in a family and community context.

[Mike]

Hi ... hope this finds you well!

I find myself thinking that we live in a transition time.... from what Alvin Toffler called indu-reality to what is not very clear yet.... Toffler called it "the Third Wave."

The principles of indus-reality:
STANDARDIZATION
SPECIALIZATION
CONCENTRATION
SYCHRONIZATION
MAXIMAZATION
CENTRALIZATION

These principles are embedded in our cultural genes. If you take a look at most industrial countries and look at their school systems in general.... all are driven by the principles of "indus-reality"... it is the cultural water we swim in.

Ian describes well this "factory" model of schooling.... 140 kids a day... moving along thru the assembly line going from class to class... with probably very little integration of any of the 45-60 minute periods of time.

Ortal, i see your daughter as starting to see that this is really not designed for how human beings learn or connect!

For me.... CONNECTION is a key component to education vs factory schooling. It is next to impossible to connect with 140 kids a day.... that is an assembly line.... good for making cars...not being with people. It is so common place that it is rarely even mentioned in any " school reform" talk.... as we focus more and more on memorizing and spitting back infromation that is quickly forgotten and rarely learned in depth.

The next piece is for me is MASTERY.... allowing kids to learn and be exposed to a broad range of knowledge...to explore something they may choose in depth.... not easy to do on the assembly line. Idus-reality sees MASTERY as high "test" scores.... what a sad distortion of learning deeply.

INDEPENDENCE is the next piece that is missing from an industrial world view. The idea of student choice and autonomy. This is an issue of developmentally shifting the locus of control from EXTERNAL TOWARD MORE AND MORE INTERNAL CONTROL". After all.... Understanding is an internal process not a series of external hoops to jump thru.

Lastly.... GENEROSITY.... the human need to find your passion and give your gifts....what ever they may be back to the world or community you live in.

To me....these are the seeds of healthy human development.......

We have a very long way to go.

The picture above.... is a symbolic native american medicine wheel. It represents the integrated components of a healthy environment for human beings.

We can learn many things from other culural views of reality.

As i walk thru schools...i use the cirlce as a filter to see what kind of place i am in.... is this place a place that connects with kids. Do they teach for mastery....can they find kids gifts.... do they allow kids some choices or freedom...and how do they allow students to experience generoisty and giving back to others.......

Wonder.... how that would go over in the current climate of high standards and school reform???

be well...mike

[Or-Tal Kiriati]

Oh, wow. That's a really good discussion. I am learning so much. I may translate some of the things you and Ian said here to Hebrew, if I find any one here ready to share some knowledge.

[Mike]

Hi Ortal.... hope this finds you well!

If you ever do translate it... would love to see what it looks like in Hebrew!!

Be well... mike

[Shaii Kiriati]

Well, the truth is I like studying- I just don't like to study at school. I'm just bored, and I think it's hard for me to wake up in the morning not because I didn't sleep enough, but because it happens to me too much that I sit in the class and think 'what did I wake up for? staying in bed would be a better use of my time than sitting here and getting bored..'.
I think of school and how we learn now, and it's just amazing to think that what was said about education more than 2000 years ago is so true for today-Socrates thought that humans have a basic nature they are born with: curiosity. He thought it's wrong that the education system, instead of developing and using this curiosity to teach the children, they kill this curiosity and instead of teaching they make the kids memorize, and while learning and understanding through thinking and researching will help the humanity develop, memorization is a great way for staying in one place. He tried to educate the children himself, asking them questions they had to think about if they wanted to answer. That's why he was killed.
Socrates, I'm saying again, lived more than 2000 years ago. I guess everybody agrees we moved a great distance since then, so why is it still so true?
I wish to learn through my curiosity. I'd love to research and think, even if it means working harder. I don't mind working harder if I get to enjoy it.

(BTW, Or-Tal is my mom, almost forgot to mention"^^)

[Ian Carmichael]

Thanks Shaii,
Nice to hear your voice!!

[Mike]

Hi Shaii... hope this finds you well and what a pleasure to meet you and to have a student voice here on fireside...WELCOME.

After reading your post i was wondering......

What do you like to study when your not at school?

What are your peers interested in knowing about?

What drives your curiosity?

Can you describe for us a teacher ( or any form of adult ) that helped spark your curiosity? What were ( are ) those adults like?

How connected are kids in your school with their teachers?

Glad to meet you...

be well... mike

[Shaii Kiriati]

Hi Mike, Nice to meet you.
The subject I'm most interested in is physics, but I like pretty much any other scientific subject. The truth is I barely have time to study for own pleasure - I always study for school and such, and when at last I have some free time, I usually don't spend it on learning.
I think most of the learning I do which is not for school is when I use Wikipedia. When there's something I don't understand and there's a link on it, I click it and read on, and if there's something there I don't understand with a link I click it too...when it's about science, I'll go out of this circle only if there's something else I have to do…

What drives my curiosity is a question a bit difficult to answer. I think that the need to think and to use my brain is a part of it. When I don't understand something, or something I understand but it makes me think about other things I don't understand, I start to ask questions and look for answers. But not every subject I don't understand drives my curiosity- for example, I don't think I ever completely understood Hebrew grammar, but I feel no need to know it because it looks pointless to me-I don't think someone beside grammar teachers ever thought or used this knowledge. I guess I'm only curios about what I think is important and useful. Why do I think physics is important or useful?.. Well, I have no idea. I guess I'll have to think about it some more before offering a real answer.
Who made me curios?... There are some lectures and lessons that made me curios, but I have no idea about someone that made me curios: there may be someone, but I have no idea right now who. One lecture that I remember well and I really liked (unlike other children in my class) was about paradoxes-That was something that make your brain think!

About the connection between the children and the teachers- It depends on the teacher. We speak freely with our grammar teacher because we feel she really understand how we think and she speaks with us and behaves with us like between humans-she doesn't keep a teacher-student distance.
We're not so free with our English teacher even though she's funny and she's pretty nice, because she's still marking some clear rules, her Hebrew is really bad (she was born in USA) so she just speaks English, and we only started to learn with her this year-but she's on the right track... I don't think we can really talk so easily with our homeroom teacher- her exams are a NIGHTMARE (well, history. I don't remember when history exams weren't so terrible), and sometimes she acts in a way that I don't think fits school now, though it might have been the way 30 years ago, and the way she dresses and speaks - I think the best way to explain it is by saying it's like a big red-head buldozer: strong, focused on one clear goal, and can't be stopped (whoever learned with her might agree with me, but I don't think it's a very good description for someone who never saw her).
We don't really speak with our computers teacher, because it's like we're living in different worlds-he doesn't understand us at all, nor do we understand him.

What other students in my class want to know? well, I have no idea really"^^ conversations like this really don't happen a lot, and usually when students say they want or don't want to learn a subject it's mostly because of the teacher- I mostly try to separate the teacher as a human from the teacher as someone who teaches us from the subject of the lesson.