Grades

[Shaii Kiriati]

What do you think about grades?
How should grades be given?
Should students give the teachers grades too?
What about exams and tests? How should it work?
Do grades should be given at all?

I have a dilemma about 'what the teacher thinks about you' as a part of the grade:
On the one hand, if you want to have good grades, you need to know how to make the teacher happy not less, and sometimes even more, than you need to know what he teaches.
On the other hand, sometimes there are students that just can't make it through the exams-they may know the subject very well and even teach others about it, but in the exam nothing goes the way it is supposed to. Students like that need the teacher's opinion as a part of the grade when the teacher knows they deserve higher grades. What do you think about it?

I'll be happy to hear your opinions!

[Mike]

Hi Shaii... hope this finds you well..... you my new friend are asking radical questions!!!

I feel fortunate to have lived my adolescents at a time of rebellion in America.... although i wonder what happened to many of us as we aged. I came of age in the early 1970's was only 14 at the time of woodstock so i watched many things going on in America at the time.

There were many fairly stupid and dangerous acting out things going on at the time but there was also a sense of positive energy that changed many things...from womens rights, black pride, gay rights, as well as a openness in many areas of study. Looking backwards, my highschool was more porgressive then any i have visited as an adult!

Grades are another left over relic that is alive and well as we rank and sort human beings thru our factory like systems. Interesting that over the last 30 years we have moved from progressive back toward a more conservative view of many issues.

So... i agree...grades are a very silly left over.... wonder when the youth of the world might decide to do something about all the changes they might want to see? Wonder why the youth of the world seem so complaint?

Whats up with that?

be well... mike

[Mike]

[Janet Navarro]

This is such a great/hard question. I'm really glad you asked it, because I haven't vented about grades in a long time.

For the most part, I think we should keep grades, because everyone is so used to them, it would be like taking salt and sugar out of a student's diet to just take grades away. These things should be limited and used carefully to support a healthy diet (so to speak) of learning, but the changes have to be made slowly. That said, I think we should keep them only as a bridge to a time when we don't have them anymore.

I believe that grades worked (and still work) in a system where the point of a class is to master a body of knowledge -- that can be tested in particular objective ways. I think grades can be given to attest to the fact that someone has mastered that knowledge to a certain "level" and that each level is worth such and such a grade.

But, I also don't believe in objectivity and I don't believe that education is about mastering a body of knowledge. So, then what? I mean, how do we use grades if the goal is to understand something deeply, not to master a set of facts and figures? What if we value the fact that everyone comes into the class with at a different starting point? Do we grade progress toward understanding? And, then what if you start further behind someone else, and make more progress, but you are still behind the person who made less progress but started out with stronger understandings? Who gets the better grade? The person who moves farther along all together, or the person who starts and ends farther ahead? And, what about other kinds of advantages and disadvantages? Can we control for social class differences? I mean, in the US so many people play golf and they get something called a handicap -- so their scores are adjusted based on experience and ability -- do we give kids a "math handicap" or a "language arts" handicap that fits the fact that some kids come into the school or class with less background knowledge and experience than others? And what about all those kids who learn differently? I mean here both kids who learn differently, because their brain doesn't process visual or auditory information the same way as most kids, and I mean just thinking in terms of the multiple intelligences?

Well you can see that I don't put much stock into grades. I think they are a bit arbitrary. They exist in a structure that continues to advantage children who are already advantaged to to continue to disadvantage children who are already disadvantaged.

Yet, let me be clear, as a teacher I use them to get students to take certain things seriously, because they come into my classes expecting to be graded on things and the grade (inaccurately) seems to tell them how they are doing. My sons' teachers, at school parent teacher conferences, can only tell me the grades my sons are getting. They have no idea how to talk about my sons' developing conceptual understandings. When I ask the teachers how the grade represents my sons' understandings of the content, they look at me like I'm crazy. They have no idea what I'm talking about, but return me back to the list of quizzes and homework scores and papers. But, I have no idea if the quizzes, homework, and papers are designed to move understanding forward, or if they are just work for the sake of work. It drives me crazy.

In one class I teach to college students who hope to be elementary teachers, I have an important assignment about the assessing of children's literacy lives. I make them do this over and over until they get an A. If they don't get an A, they can't move on to the next assignment. I want everyone in the class to get an "A" because, as I say, "You are all going to be teachers of young children. Why would I want to send a "D" or a "C" level teacher out to get a job working with children. You all need to have an "A" level of understanding regarding how to do this. And they do it over, more because, they want the A, than because they are working toward deeper understanding. But, in a few years, I get letters back, thanking me because they are out in the schools feeling well prepared.

Your question gets at the heart of what are the purposes of education in the first place, who gets to decide and what if we don't agree?

[Laura Gibbs]

Hi Janet, I share your goal of grading in a way so that everybody can get an A in my classes (I've posted here about how I set that up)... at the same time, I know that I get looked down on by other professors in my school because I give "too many" A grades.

Do you run into that problem? It's something that I worry about a lot - especially because I am an instructor and not a tenure-track faculty member, I know that I could lose my job because my grading system is one that many of my colleagues would disagree with, those folks who believe that any grading system in which every student can hope to get an A is just a wrong system, because for them grading is based on some notion that only 10% or 20% of students should get an A in any class, because it is more like percentiles and ranking, rather than a measure of progress.

I sure wish I could be graded!!! But nobody evaluates my courses based on any standards that have been explained to me, which is why I am always anxious about not rocking the boat so as not to lose my job... and my grading system is definitely something that can be considered rocking the boat. If somebody would just spell out exactly what I am supposed to be doing to be favorably evaluated, I would do my best to be favorably evaluated... but nobody evaluates the quality of my courses except for the students (and the students' evaluations mean literally nothing in terms of job security, sadly enough... if anything, a professor that is popular with the students is looked at askance by those who think we are supposed to be "tough").

[Shaii Kiriati]

Even though I should go to sleep, and even though I didn't finish reading everything, I just had to add a comment.
It made me really angry when I read that teachers look down at you because you give 'too many A grades'. It's like those teachers that search every mistake with microscope, and will even erase half point because they don't want too see a perfect grade.
What is it good for?? Why SHOULDN'T students get an A?? Why is it so bad to see students succeed? If you're teaching in a way that makes student's life easier and help them succeed, it must be a better way, and no one should be looking down at you, because your students succeed.

Well, now after I wrote everything to calm me down, I think about it a bit more, and I guess the problematic word is the word 'success'. Grades, if we want it or not, tells if we succeed or not. The fact that you give a lot of A grades for students that won't get them with other teachers, means you see success as a different thing.

Another question to add, then: What is success?

(btw, I didn't start with hello and stuff because I feel like having a conversation so it just feels to me weird-sorry"^^)

[Laura Gibbs]

Hi Shaii, I worry about grades a lot because I know my students care about grades, and even obsess about them. It's almost like after 12 or more years of being in school, the final grade is the main thing they focus on, rather than anything else about the class:
they have to get a passing grade for the class to count for graduating from college
they want to get a good grade to improve their GPA
they have a big emotional investment in grades

In order to try to remove anxiety from grades, I use a points system which is not based on tests, but on whether or not people SPEND TIME on my classes. My optimistic assumption is that if people will complete the work, they will learn something - the more of the work they complete, the more they will learn. It's not an ideal system, but it is the best solution I have found.

So, in my Myth-Folklore class, just to take one example, there are 450 points of required work, 30 points per week divided in various tasks (sample week). To get an A in the class, you need 410 points by the end of the semester, 60 points for a B, 320 points for a C. (We do not have plus or minus grades a my school, just A-B-C-D-F).

In addition to the 450 points of required work, there are 150 points of extra credit during the semester (some extra credit available every week, plus some Grammar Quiz extra credit). There's really no difference between the required work and the extra credit; I just call it that, so the students can budget their time in a good way - everybody should try to do all the required assignments, but if that doesn't work out (too busy some week, or maybe they just don't like the readings one week and don't want to do the work), then do extra credit to make up the missing points. Students sometimes do lots of extra credit in order to finish the class early, which is another great strategy - I like when people finish early because that gives them time to spend on classes where their grade is determined by a final exam.

There are many things I like about this system. Here are the two most important:

Objective grading. There is nothing subjective about it, which makes the students much more comfortable. On any day of the semester, they know exactly what they need to do to get the grade they want (almost everybody wants an A, although some are glad to just get a C or D in order to pass, which is fine with me!). It is only a matter of how much time they have to spend on the class assignments. If they don't have a lot of time to spend on this class, they might get a B or a C or a D, and every semester a few students fail because they literally have no time to do work for the class.

No tests or exams. There are quizzes to help students be aware of whether they have really mastered the material, but they can take quizzes multiple times - so, if they have time to do the work, there's no reason not to get all the quiz points. But there are no big-stakes tests or exams of any kind, so there are never any surprises in the grade. Many college classes have most of the grade based on tests where you don't know exactly what the professor will ask, or given on a day when you might be sick, etc. - I always hated tests and exams when I was in college (I knew how arbitrary it was - I could do great because of good luck, or do terrible because of bad luck - how unfair!), so I don't have tests or exams.

Here is one thing I do not like about this system:

The way I am using the grades does NOT match what many people think a grade means: if a student gets an A in my class, it means they worked hard - but it does not mean they are an expert writer or an expert in the subject matter of the class. It just means they worked hard, and improved their knowledge. If they started out as really really really terrible writers (often the case in my classes), when they get an A in the class, they might still be judged to be "poor writers" by some kind of writing skills exam, and the same also in their knowledge of the subject matter of the class, especially if they start out with very limited knowledge. But I feel okay giving those students an A: I know what it means, and they know what it means... but since grading is so arbitrary and every professor does it their own way, I worry that someone who sees that a student got an A might assume they are an expert writer or have expert knowledge in the subject matter. Definitely not the case...

I hope other people will chime in on this topic. To me, grades are one of the WORST things about how schools are currently organized. I have no choice but to give grades, and my students are obsessed with grades... but if I were to create a school system from scratch, I would not make grades part of the system at all. Goal-setting and feedback: YES. Grades: NO.

:-)

[Laura Gibbs]

In her "famous last words" for this week today at our class Ning, one of the students posted this comment which made me really happy - it is about how she liked the points grading system and how it helped her manage the class better, which is exactly my goal! :-)

When I started this course I was concerned about how much time I would have to spend on this course each week and how I was going to fit it into my schedule. But as the semester went on I realized that this course was easy to fit into my schedule because it was so enjoyable. I have looked forward to each week's assignments and planning out the tasks I want to complete. Because I knew how many points I needed from the very beginning of the course, it helped me stay focused on my goal and made it very easy for me to check my progress each week. I really appreciated that about this course because there have been very few courses I have taken during my college career that I could check my grade status at anytime.

[Connie Weber]

Hi Shali,

Just jumping into the conversation with my world of "grades." They don't exist. I don't give grades on anything.

Each student in my class does a huge research report as part of their work in class. They spend months studying a topic of personal interest. Students design their own course of study in research, defining and redefining the topic and subtopics as they get to know more. Finally, students create a multi-paged production of their exploration, a personal synthesis of the topic.

No grades are issued, in fact, even thinking of giving grades on the project makes me uncomfortable. How could it all be reduced to a single letter?

What students do get is lots of feedback. I write a long note to each student about what I notice regarding their work, what I learned, what I question, what I think is a great accomplishment or significant progress. Students write notes to each other; each student evaluates three to seven other students' work. That's only at the end... along the way students share drafts with me, with the class, with selected others. Students share strategies for furthering each others' investigations, students "rev up" each other's motivation. Funny what simple honest INTEREST will do. Studying hard and then writing about what you learned is very exciting when you know people will take an interest in what you do.

I have to add that we have a "thinking classroom" and the culture of the classroom is paramount in making grades utterly unnecessary. (I actually think they would be harmful.) We're all in it for the learning, not a final grade. We're all in for the self-discipline it requires, the challenge, the growth we see in ourselves and each other when we dig into a topic very deeply.

Just a note: our previous art teacher used to require an extensive report on a visual artist, and that report was all about doing it to get it done and to get a grade. It was an "exercise" but it wasn't something that touched people deeply. The report was all pre-structured with expectations for what would be covered on which page, and what order the (previously defined) subtopics need to take. The students' involvement in that project was at best perfunctory. More often is a was a major "stressor," devoid of personal meaning. The final feedback was simply a letter grade, decided upon by the art teacher. That clearly didn't work in terms of stirring up passion for learning. Basically the students felt they were doing somebody else's work; they weren't at all in the driver's seat.

So, my summary of how I do it: skip the grades entirely, go for personal involvement and lots of feedback, a variety of feedback. Make sure you provide plenty of opportunity for students to hear about each others' investigations as they go.

(I teach fourth and fifth graders, BTW. In the following year, which is middle school, they'll get grades.)

[Laura Gibbs]

Connie, I love what you are doing with your class!!!!!!!!

In fourth grade, I was at an experimental school for one year (it was 1973 and looking back on it, I can see all my teachers were wonderful idealistic hippies from the 60s who had gotten into teaching) - it was open classroom, with about 100 kids combined, all the "learning materials" were in a big circle in the center of his huge room (reading, math, music, science, art, tons of cool stuff), no walls, writing tables but no desk-chairs, and we could sit on the floor if we wanted, and you would go get learning materials and then go work in one of the areas around the circle where the teachers would help you. Each student made up a learning plan each week, and the teachers wrote little comments on our learning plan each week about how we were doing and gave us ideas for what to do next, but we got to choose what we were doing (I liked doing everything, so I don't know what happened to kids who didn't want to do math or do reading). No grades (at least, no grades that I ever saw - I guess they sent grades to our parents? anyway, I had no knowledge of any grades, which suited me just fine!). They let me bring my stamp collection to school and work on my stamp collection as part of class (I memorized alphabets from around the world that I saw on the stamps, and learned about foreign currency, and wrote biographies of the people I found on the stamps...). There was group stuff, too - I remember we put on plays where we wrote the scripts ourselves. There was lots of recess where we could play outside, field trips, singing and dancing. It was awesome.

So, I LOVED THAT CLASS... and here's the downside: I went to a new school for fifth grade and we had to sit in desks, and use textbooks, and everybody had to do the same thing and we had tests and grades. I HATED IT (in fact, I was so badly behaved they finally put me in the back of the class and work at my own pace filling out the idiotic worksheets for reading and math, and when I finished all the work for the whole year in under a month they moved me to sixth grade, but I hated that too). So, the upshot was that I hated school for years, until I got to college basically. That fourth grade class is still my IDEAL of learning, and I've been trapped in a prison of tests and grades ever since! ARGH!!!!!!

I want to be in your class!!!!!!! :-)

[Mike]

Hi All... very cool conversation.

Although we talk much here about school transformation

we could quickly do some school reform stuff in our institutions:

1. No more grades

2. No more multiple choice tests

3. No more matching tests

4. No more true or false tests

5. No assessments that can be scored by machine.

6. As students age give them more and more choices concerning "electives".

7. Create flexible times that kids could go to school.

PS... sign me up for both Connies and Laura's class....

be well... mike

[Laura Gibbs]

Hi Mike, I do believe in students getting feedback about their progress,and best of all is instant feedback, so for that I do believe in machine-scored tests, NOT for grades (!!!!), but for feedback to help the student. A lot of my students will read something and not even realize they are skimming, or maybe they fall asleep while they are reading (it happens - they are so sleep-deprived!!!) - so I use simple little true-false quizzes online (all computer-based) for them to check to make sure they really got something out of the reading before they go on to the next assignment. If they bomb the quiz, they do the reading again, take the quiz again... it's totally between the student and the computer, which is great: if I were grading the quizzes, they would feel maybe ashamed or scared, but since it is just between them and the computer, that works really well: they get feedback about whether they are gaining information from the reading, and if something goes wrong, they don't have a total embarrassment crisis; instead, they just go back and do the reading again and do the quiz again.

It's a system that works really well for classes with reading assignments, or in language classes where students need lots and lots and lots of feedback about whether they are gaining the language skills... feedback, but not punishment! not embarrassment!... and hopefully the quizzes can be fun, too! For example, I like to make funny true-falses where, if you have done the reading, the question is really funny because it is soooooo false. Or, for my grammar practice quizzes, I made all the questions based on proverbs, so that it would be more fun: they are learning about commas and punctuation and boring stuff like that, but the proverbs can add some wisdom and/or humor into the mix! Here are some examples: Comma Proverbs.

[Ed Hitchcock]

Let me chime in with what has been, in my humble opinion, a very effective machine-scored assessment. In my physics classes I give students individualized assignments - that is, each student gets the same questions, but different numbers. As a result, they cannot just copy off each other - they can ask "How did you do that", but not "what did you get?" Then I give them multiple opportunities to submit their answers, and I grade only the answers.
So a student submits an assignment (on paper or electronically) and gets the results immediately. Any questions they get wrong, they can redo. So they have the opportunity (and incentive) to go back over their work and look for errors, in order to correct them. And, here's the best part, they turn to each other for help - and start asking the question "why did you do that?" They think it's "cheating" and they are "getting away with it". I think they are learning to solve complex problems through peer collaboration, without my intervention at all :-)