Grades

[Shaii Kiriati]

What do you think about grades?
How should grades be given?
Should students give the teachers grades too?
What about exams and tests? How should it work?
Do grades should be given at all?

I have a dilemma about 'what the teacher thinks about you' as a part of the grade:
On the one hand, if you want to have good grades, you need to know how to make the teacher happy not less, and sometimes even more, than you need to know what he teaches.
On the other hand, sometimes there are students that just can't make it through the exams-they may know the subject very well and even teach others about it, but in the exam nothing goes the way it is supposed to. Students like that need the teacher's opinion as a part of the grade when the teacher knows they deserve higher grades. What do you think about it?

I'll be happy to hear your opinions!

[Janet Navarro]

YEAH. Glad to see you.

[Shaii Kiriati]

Wow.
I wish I could have a teacher like you.
In school, we actually learn for the exams and grades. No one learns for himself, to improve his knowledge because he is interested in the subject he learns-'interesting' and 'school' usually don't go well together.
Knowledge doesn't help very much to get good grades-a student mostly need to chew and spit a certain subject, and if the teacher likes it theres a good grade and the student succeed. When there's something wrong, the student don't always even know what, and most of the time it's just a little thing the student forgot to write on the test. In school, 'learning' means memorizing and understanding the teacher(the 2nd part has more to do with subjects like bible and history, and less with scientific subjects, but it's an important part of the grade in both. I checked it out once). This way, I don't think someone actually gets to learn. Works can be found in Wikipedia, and once I write an exam word-to-word from my notebook-not much to do with thinking.
If student could relax and stop being so stressed about grades, mybe we could actually learn something...

[Anna Billings]

Here is an interesting practice described in the book, The Art of Possibility, by Rosamund Stone Zander (family therapist, painter, writer) and Benjamin Zander (conductor of Boston Philharmonic, teacher, communicator).

They call the practice "Giving an A." The idea is based on bringing out a student's full potential rather than comparing them to some arbitrary standard.

At the beginning of each class, they announce that "Each student in this class will be given an A for the course." There is one requirement for this. "Sometime in the next two weeks, you must write me a letter dated next May, which begins with the works, 'Dear Mr. Zander, I got my A because ... ,' and in this letter you are to tell, in as much detail as you can, the story of what will have happened to your by next May that is in line with this extraordinary grade."

He asks them "to place themselves in the future, looking back, and to report on all the insights they acquired and milestones they attained during the year as if those accomplishments were already in the past." And says that he is "especially interested in the person you will have become by next May." That he is "interested in the attitudes, feelings, and worldview of that person who will have done all he/she wished to do or become everything he/she wanted to be." and to "fall passionately in love with the person they are describing in their letter."

And the results by May are truly extraoridinary!

[Laura Gibbs]

What I love about that, Anna, is that it asks the students to make the effort right from the start, while also giving them that responsibility... I'm guessing quite a few of my students, who have really had their souls beaten down by all these years of schooling, would ask me if they could please have a B instead, in exchange for me telling them what to do, ha ha.

But seriously, many students in my classes will decide to take a B or a C in the class on purpose (doing less work, spending less time) because they have put themselves in an impossible position: they work fulltime, AND go to school fulltime, AND have a family... so, if they literally have no time in which to learn, it's hard for that learning to take place. They want to get a university degree (which is not necessarily the same as wanting to learn), and they want/need to do it in as little time as possible (the rule of 168: that's how many hours there are in the week, not a single hour more). So, I've tried to set up my class to accommodate the fact that, honestly, many of the students have not come to the class with learning as their main goal, but simply with "getting the credits" they need for the diploma.

Yet learning takes time - how could it not...? What a luxury it would be if by some miracle there were some magical day added to the week to give everybody, young and old, more of a chance to do all they wish to do and become who they want to be!

[Sarah Summey]

Wow, what an interesting conversation! It is amazing how everyone has different opinions on this subject. I agree with both sides of the conversation. As a student right now I know why we should have grades but I would love for at least one or two of my classes to not require grades.

As Laura said, "students obsess about grades." All throughout school we have been pushed and pushed to "get good grades." It is supposed to be this motivation thing but in all reality it adds extra pressure to an already chaotic life. Now that I am in college I have come to rely on my good grades to keep up my GPA. And since I am at the end of my college career my GPA really matters. To apply to the College of Education I need at least a 3.0 in my major and at least a 2.8 (I think) in my minor. It's not like a 3.0 is hard to get but sometimes (like in my case) classes don't go as expected. So, I need to raise my major grade to even apply. It puts SO much more pressure on me. I don't understand why there is so much emphasis on grades!

I love both Connie's and Laura's ideas. I love the fact that Connie's class does not get graded but gets feedback. It is so much more fun to do school work on issues that you are interested in. And then to get feedback instead of a grade makes you want to do better on the project. You are not worried about what grade you will get it's more of an enjoyable lesson. I like Laura's idea as well. It would be nice to know how many points each thing is worth in a class. That way the focus is not just on papers and tests. One of the reasons I did so bad in one of my major classes is because it was based on tests only. I am a bad test taker for the most part. So, if the class was based on a number of items it would work more smoothly for me.

And Mike, I agree with 1-7! No more tests!!

Just thought I would throw my two cents in!

[Or-Tal Kiriati]

Well I have to re-read all these replies. Looks like we are creating the formula to a winning schooling program.

Specifically for grades - obviously everyone is happy when they (or their kids/students) get an "A", a 100 score, the perfect highest possible grade. These are the grades we wouldn't like to give up. The problem is when you don't get it, or don't always get it, or never get it, or think you should get it - but... And that's when you need not only an alternative - but also a totally separate evaluation tool. Like - feedback.

As for tests - I hate tests, I think a project is always better (“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” Franklin). But, in some cases tests are inevitable. Think medicine, for example....

And there's much more I'd love to add but so short of time... sorry.

[Ian Carmichael]

It depends - in my especially dear subject (Religion and Philosophy), the criteria we consider are concerned with understanding, analysis, evaluation - very much about process rather than mandated content. I don't have major qualms with grades - but I'd still rather the outcome of the classes was better understanding of ethics, decision-making processes and their evaluation, as well as better understanding of a key ethical issue and how soundly arguments relate to, support, or oppose particular courses of action. We don't specify the issue to be tackled - that's for student interest. The course doesn't prescribe ethical theories to be considered - or assessed, other than that they relate to normative ethics.
So, I'm able (I think) to consider work from engaged students pursuing their interests (under my framework).
Other subjects, I can be less sanguine about. But certainly the idea of A's for plain recall etc are just silly to me, so I'd subscribe to most of Mike's list - down with automatable marking, true false, multiple-choice etc.

[Ed Hitchcock]

Perhaps the issue is not grades, but the stigma of grades. When I am learning something new - astrophotography for example - I send my work to friends (and sometimes complete strangers) for scrutiny and feedback. Sometimes it is encouraging, and sometimes it is harsh, but it gives me an idea of where I need to improve my techniques. Because I want to improve my techniques.
In theory, the idea of assessment in learning is to let students know where they can improve, so that they can focus their efforts. In practice, the grade itself becomes the goal, not the learning. Sometimes this is imposed from the outside (eg, university admission criteria) and sometimes from within ("I need to make honour roll!"). I think numerical grades (%) lead to point-grubbing ("Aw sir, it's 79.3%, can't you round up to 80%?"), so I prefer A-O-B (Above expectation, On Level, Below expectation) or the equivalent, as a means of indicating how much work still needs to be done in a given area to master it.
For assessments, I am a firm believer in choice. On tests I always have "Select any three of the following 8 questions", and on projects I give choice in subject matter and delivery format. However, some form of standardized assessment has a place as it provides me with a template of what the expectations should be.
Lastly, I tell students up front that they are free to like or dislike me, and that when I grade their work it will be on the quality of the work, not my opinion of how much they suck up. Also, I emphasize that I am looking for what they are trying to tell me, not what they think I want to hear, and that taking risks will always be recognized.

[Shaii Kiriati]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I see mainly 2 ideas here, in different methodes:
1. Fully involves the teacher. More feedback by words, less grading by letters/numbers. Mostly uses assiments, less exams.
2. Almost doesn't involve the teachers. Grade as a feedback. Grade still exists, but differently. Mostly uses classwork, little quizes for the student, and many other little details.

did I get it right?