Play, Spirit, and Character

[Anna Billings]

Here's another great interview entitled Play, Spirit, and Character conducted by Krista Tippett on Speaking of Faith. She is interviewing Stuart Brown, a physician and director of the National Institute of Play.

Dr. Brown "says that pleasurable, purposeless activity prevents violence and promotes trust, empathy, and adaptability to life's complication. He promotes cutting-edge science on human play, and draws on a rich universe of study of intelligent social animals."

There are a couple of great videos on the page also. Check out "Animals at Play," polar bear meets husky. And "Fellowship of the Rings," an amazing experience of flying from ring to ring. I might post them later on.

I haven't listened to the interview yet, but plan to. It's 53 minutes, available as a download, podcast, or listen on the site.

Enjoy! :-)

[Connie Weber]

Oh my gosh--I heard the show this morning on the way to a kayaking adventure, and wouldn't get out of the car until I found my little radio to carry into my kayaking-buddy's house. It was wild, trying to take notes in the car as the show played. (Do you think that's a safety hazard, taking notes while driving?!) Profound stuff! One of my favorites Speaking of Faith shows ever!

Here are some scratched-out notes:

Dr. Steward Brown, Director, National Institute of Play

subtopics: animal play, similarities and differences between animal and human play. what happens to animals or people who develop without play? non-flexible intelligence, rigidity
important difference between "play" and "contest" --note that sports could be either, but they're very different approaches
coyotes, bears, chimpanzees
extensive quotes from Jane Goodall
as a parent, you get to relearn how to play; it's good for mental health
big danger in "overprotected play"
rebellion by some against "sterile playground" --making things too safe may not ultimately lead to safety at all
you can observe a child in play --don't direct it-- see her innate talents, see how her talents go with temperament, you'll find, expressed through play, a "union between self and talent," nature's way of saying who you are and what you are

this guy is as wise as Bruner

I'm going to put this one on my iPod, listen and take extensive notes, follow up by checking out his institute...

Thanks, Anna! I know you'll LOVE the show. This is a keeper, simply magnificent. Good for use with all sorts of groups: teachers, parents, individuals set out for personal growth... Fantastic resource. Wish I could have a transcript, too, not just the podcast. Will see if it's possible.

[Anna Billings]

Hi Connie,

Yes, the transcript is available via the Speaking of Faith website. Here is the direct link to the transcript page.

I've also ordered his book, Play: How it Shapes the Brain, Opens the Imagination, and Invigorates the Soul. Just came out this year.

Looking forward to listening (and reading). :-)

[Connie Weber]

Yahoo! I'll get the book, too. Thanks for the transcript. Now I need to get to school to print it out. Have you had the chance to hear the show yet? I think it's profound. Want to share it with everybody I know!

[Anna Billings]

I like his distinction between competition and contest. He says that competitiveness is natural and healthy and defines it as "testing one's skill against the skill of another without the necessity of domination." Contests, he says "require a winner and often have an exclusionary quality to it." Then he describes how animals will incorporate handicaps in order to keep the play going (play for its own sake rather than to win or dominate) and that they readily switch roles from chaser to the one being chased.

All of this calls our attention to the influence of coaches and parents and the importance of emphasizing "mutual participation, love of the game, and striving for personal best without superimposing the pressures of contest especially with young children." Makes me think of the potential for parents (and sad to say, some teachers also) to spoil the fun by focusing on winning. Well-meaning perhaps, but damaging nonetheless with their rants and yells from the sidelines that injures rather than promotes confidence and joy.

I can see how fostering a healthy attitude towards play for kids can lead to a more joyful life as they grow into adulthood — sense of adventure, the joys of exploring and trying new activities, cooperation, fun interactions with others and so forth.

[Ian Carmichael]

Interesting indeed. Thanks Anna and Connie. I've only taken time to skim the transcript, which was interesting in itself. (Did you notice that very often the interviewer wasn't 'in synch' with Brown's responses and often interrupted with 'hmms' and 'rights' in the middle of thought flow?)

Perhaps the scariest response was the deduction (by the interviewer, not Brown) that if play is so important, we must play, and so make play work!

And, as for rats deprived of play failing at the real business of life - don't recongnise enemies, threats, or socialise properly - what a telling finding.

What you think from your teaching experience - are the 'unsuccessful learners' generally those without play at home? Are they generally the 'at risk' students, who experience no mediated learning at home because of either absent, inattentive or abusive adults?
And what do we contribute, as teachers, if we run a completely disciplined, rigidly 'sobersides' classroom, and remove recess and reduce lunchtimes? (And then there's the sadness of students who don't 'get' the teacher, or the class at play.)


Mike, of course, would 'wonder..'. So do I.

[Anna Billings]

HI Ian,

Yes, one of the ongoing pitfalls of interviewers is their tendency to interrupt. TV hosts are especially prone to this. Such a delicate balance to be responsible for the limited timeframe (TV of course is especially run by this as their sponsors must have their say at precise intervals) and giving time for the completion of a thought, a communication, and actually listening to what is said. Some time back, I was interviewed on the radio by someone who clearly had his own agenda and had me thinking I was being used to facilitate his own need to expound on his own theories. Interesting experience.

Regarding the impact of no play, I'm reminded of your comment in response to another forum of mine on The Loss of Play in which you sited the Scientific American article on play (that I later sited again in my recent forum on The Role of Creative Imagination in Learning). Ah the interweaving of discussions. Got to love that link option on Fireside. You made mention there of Stuart Brown's work with murderers and the discovery that they all shared in common the lack of play in their childhood (along with abusive childhoods). Not that all who share this background become murderers, but it does give pause to think about the extenuating impact of such deprivation.

And I agree that making play work (or making it some sort of requirement) is not the way to go. Sort of like demanding spontaneity. :-) Instead, I'd rather see work become more like play which more or less means having it be more enjoyable.

I like that Brown includes the pastime of reading as play. Doesn't all have to be that make-a-fool-of-yourself stuff although that has its benefits too. :-D

[Mike]

Hi All...great thread of conversation!!!

Yes... Ian.... i do wonder about a culture that needs to justify PLAY!!!

So thoughts and reflections:

A favorite: D.W. Winnicott.........

"Psychotherapy takes place in the overlap of two areas of playing, that of the patient and that of the therapist. Psychotherapy has to do with two people playing together. The corollary of this is that where playing is not possible then the work done by the therapist is directed towards bringing the patient from a state of not being able to play into a state of being able to play. (from "Playing: Its Theoretical Status in the Clinical Situation," 1971)"

"The place where cultural experience is located is in the potential space between the individual and the environment (originally the object). The same can be said of playing. Cultural experience begins with creative living first manifested as play." (from "Playing: Its Theoretical Status in the Clinical Situation," 1971)

The ability for human beings to play is primary. It saddens me when i walk around schools and work places and see no one playing!!!

"It is in the space between inner and outer world, which is also the space between people--the transitional space--that intimate relationships and creativity occur." (from "Transitional Objects and Transitional Phenomena," 1951)

When i read this quote from Winnicott ...it takes me to the space between myself and anyone functioning as a "student". It is an important crtical space for teachers to be aware of.......

From Turning Learning Right Side Up by Russell Ackoff and Daniel Greenberg

The second aspect of explaining something that leaves the explainer more enriched, and with a much deeper understanding of the subject, is this:

To satisfy the person being addressed, to the point where that person can nod his head and say, "Ah, yes, now I understand!" explainers must not only get the matter to fit comfortably into their own worldview, into their own personal frame of reference for understanding the world around them, they also have to figure out how to link their frame of reference to the worldview of the person receiving the explanation, so that the explanation can make sense to that person, too.

This involves an intense effort on the part of the explainer to get into the other person's mind, so to speak, and that exercise is at the heart of learning in general.

We can play at anything!!!

We play here and we are not even in the same time zones!!!

be well... mike

[Ian Carmichael]

This is where I diverge from so much couples 'therapy' which adds work to fragile relationships. Helping them to break! I'd love to see an approach which leaves out work for a while. Eg What do you folks (still) enjoy together. If there is (!) something, go and do it, go and play, often (say weekly) - then, there's some stuff to work on - try that once a fortnight!

Then again - as is obvious - I'm an amateur, not a therapist!

[Anna Billings]

Right on, Ian. Not amateurish at all. I actually recommend this quite a bit in couples therapy. I always ask what they see as the strengths in their relationship, what brought them together, their connections, and what have they enjoyed (and may still enjoy) together. Often the enjoyment has been depleted or crowded out by other concerns. Then we look at how to bring some of that back and how to create new possibilities.

[Connie Weber]

Hi Anna and Everyone,

I finished the book over the weekend. I got a lot out of it. I feel soothed from reading it.

I'd say to my colleagues, read it if you want an overview framework for how to "view" play, and how to communicate its importance to other people. Read it if you want to be able to show why play is essential to learning. Read it if you want to lighten up on yourself, too!

One of my favorite recent books. It'd make a nice present for friends, parents, colleagues. I'm ordering one for our new administrator at school as a welcoming gift.

Anna, let's continue this discussion about Stuart Brown's studies, ok? You just got the book, right? Have you read any yet?

[Anna Billings]

Thanks, Connie. More to discuss for sure. I'm about half way through with many openings and insights coming. To be continued. :-)